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wolfprince01

Trooper

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I like the unit making idea and to make it balanced the cost can be based on what stats you give it.something like this.
-every point of attack in a (soft,hard,est.)cost 5.
-every point of defence cost 20.
-every point of movement cost 5.
-have cost for things like move and fire.10?
-move 2 time.10+5 for every move point of the 2nd move.
-move and attack 2 times.1.5x base cost +5 for every move point of the 2nd move.


jeye

Tank

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wolfprince01 wrote:I like the unit making idea and to make it balanced the cost can be based on what stats you give it.something like this.
-every point of attack in a (soft,hard,est.)cost 5.
-every point of defence cost 20.
-every point of movement cost 5.
-have cost for things like move and fire.10?
-move 2 time.10+5 for every move point of the 2nd move.
-move and attack 2 times.1.5x base cost +5 for every move point of the 2nd move.




sounds interesting but the scheme should be more complex, for example i could come up with the following:

attack: hard: 24 , other: 0
defense: 0
Movement: 15
move and fire: 10
According to your suggestions this unit would come at 205 and this unit can kill a berserker with a single attack with a higher movement speed then a raider. (even better would be a higher attack range but you didn't give the points for that).

A raider would be about 380 just to compare.

I think the costs for an increase in points should increase the higher the value is. Also finding good values needs a lot of testing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 10/08/2008 12:42:57

wolfprince01

Trooper

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That is true but it has no defence at all and no attack vs any other unit so a trooper can kill it easy.so it can kill any tank but its going to take alot for damage if not die an any fight.The cost we can work on.

I think there needs to be a max attack of 20 and a max defence of 15 and a max move of 18 (most land takes 3 to move over,so 18=6).
one more thing I missed is attack range.for that I think the it needs to be some thing like, min. range:-25 cost for every point above 1,and max range:+50 cost for every point above 1.max range of 5.

The unit makeing page can look something like this.note: []= a check box and [+] & [-] are buttons.

select unit type:soft[]hard[]air[]speedboat[]amphibic[]sub[]boat[]

set attack values:
soft:......[-]0[+]
hard:......[-]0[+]
air:.......[-]0[+]
speedboat:.[-]0[+]
amphibic:..[-]0[+]
sub:.......[-]0[+]
boat:......[-]0[+]

attack range:min.[-]1[+]max.[-]1[+]

set defence value:[-]0[+]

select any abilitys:
move and attack....[]
move 2 times.......[]
attack 2 times.....[]
can capture bases..[]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 11/08/2008 07:18:06

wolfprince01

Trooper

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here are some ways to do cost.
-Have the cost based on points(attack points 1-10 cost 5 each and 11-15 cost10 each and 16-20 cost 15 each or some thing like that)
-Have a set cost for points(all attack points cost 5)
-Have it based on the unit type(hard units get defence cheaper then soft, speedboats get move cheaper then boats)
-A mix of the first and third ideas.
-This one just works for attack points:Have the cost of attack points be based on the total attack points(soft:10 hard:10 air:10 speedboat:10 amphibic:10 sub:10 boat:10 = 70 attack points)and the cost is based on the point range idea(1-50 cost 5 each,50-75 cost 10 each,76-100 cost 20 each,101-140 cost 50 each)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 11/08/2008 07:11:07

Tonic

Heavy Trooper

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Lucian wrote:Add paratrooper to that list for an aerial unit that can capture bases. Huge movement, but little in terms of offense/defense.


I totally agree with you ... "Airborne Trooper", $ 300, movement = heli, combat = Trooper.

Would be just great to threaten the rear of the hostile army.

Especially if you add surprise by having "fog of war" (limited visibility) integrated to weewar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 22/08/2008 11:29:20

Casaubon

Tank

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Currently there is sea battles between dominating battle ships, subs that try to sink em and destroyers that try to protect the battleships and destroy the subs or air raiders before they get through. speedboats play seldomly a role in sea fights if not to sink a heavily damaged destroyer. I think thats it basically. So why not introduce a new ship to make more options how sea battles can be played?

I thought my cruiser idea was new but apparently its not as it was proposed in this thread long time ago.

I tried to translate this: into weewar design and came up with this:

So what features would a cruiser have?
  • I´d suggest to make it either a kind of naval artillery since cruisers are carrying heavy missile launch equipment nowadays. For example it could move 3 hexes and have a firing range of 3-4 as my friend Owezara has proposed, or even up to 5 firing range to make a bigger difference? Maybe otherwise people would say, hey why should I build a Cruiser for lets say 1200 and not wait until I have 2000 for the Battleship..

  • the other idea could be to degrade destroyers a bit and let them further on be air and sub defense support on sea for the fleet, maybe reduce their firing range to 2 and attack values against boats while the new cruiser could be the 3 range medium bombardement unit with almost no defense against subs and medium values against air?


  • what do you guys think of it? (see the cruiser on a tiny map here.)
    cheers cas




    Alfons

    Heavy Trooper

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    I just had the same idea as your second suggestion, Cas.
    According to my experience, destroyers are quite dominant in most sea battles, thus suppressing the applicability of subs.

    Let's try it like this:

    Destroyer: Cost: 600
    Def: 10
    Range: 1-2
    Move: 12
    Attack: (6/6/12/12/12/16/8 )

    Cruiser: Cost: 900
    Def: 12
    Range: 1-3 (1-1 vs Subs)
    Move: 9
    Attack: (10/10/8/12/12/6/12)

    This is more or less the advantages of a destroyer split up on two units (destroyer: good against air, sub; cruiser: good against land units, boats)
    The changes are not too dramatic, but that's why they should fit well within the current set of units.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 25/03/2009 18:08:27

    jeye

    Tank

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    Casaubon wrote:
  • I´d suggest to make it either a kind of naval artillery since cruisers are carrying heavy missile launch equipment nowadays. For example it could move 3 hexes and have a firing range of 3-4 as my friend Owezara has proposed, or even up to 5 firing range to make a bigger difference? Maybe otherwise people would say, hey why should I build a Cruiser for lets say 1200 and not wait until I have 2000 for the Battleship..

  • the other idea could be to degrade destroyers a bit and let them further on be air and sub defense support on sea for the fleet, maybe reduce their firing range to 2 and attack values against boats while the new cruiser could be the 3 range medium bombardement unit with almost no defense against subs and medium values against air?



  • I like the second idea, but I am not sure if the destroyer range should be reduced 2. I would suggest to lower the attack vs boat to 7 or 8 (from 10) by keeping the destroyer costs. (it is very effective against most units accept for battleships than). This way destroyers would be rather weak against battleships.

    For the first idea I would definately suggest not to give a cruiser a range of 5 because it would to to threatening to a dfa. I think the cruiser should fill a role to fight destroyers well and are not to bad against battleships but are weak vs. subs and air units.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 25/03/2009 20:10:17

    jeye

    Tank

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    Alfons wrote:
    Let's try it like this:

    Destroyer: Cost: 600
    Def: 10
    Range: 1-2
    Move: 12
    Attack: (6/6/12/12/12/16/8)

    Cruiser: Cost: 900
    Def: 12
    Range: 1-3 (1-1 vs Subs)
    Move: 9
    Attack: (10/10/8/12/12/6/12)



    With this stats destroyers would even rule the naval battle even more due to the cheap price. 2 less defense and attack vs boats are not worth reducing the price of the imo overpowered destroyers by 300 also not with lower damage to land units.

    I would suggest the following destroyer stats which makes the destroyer still very good against air units and subs but weaker vs other BOAT units.

    Destroyer: Cost: 900
    Def: 12
    Range: 1-3
    Move: 12
    Attack: (10/10/12/12/12/16/7)

    To get a naval unit which is cheaper we could go with a frigate which will be useful against speedboats, hovers, limited vs air units. In groups it could be used vs battleships.


    Frigate: Cost: 600
    Def: 10
    Range: 1-2
    Move: 12
    Attack: (8/8/8/10/10/4/8)

    What do you think?

    Casaubon

    Tank

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    My experience with the weewar community tells me that there is always strong opposition against new things and even more against more new things than one. I guess the propability that powerposters would accept even two new sea units (cruiser AND frigate) is really low (except Lucian maybe hehe). I understand their wish to keep weewar simple well though in the same way as I´d like to see more and more units join the ring in the same time. Today I showed Weewar to 5 friends of mine at a party and they definitely reacted better on the Aruba map than on a game that I showed on a complicated Pro map. Still in the end they said I was freak
    I personally could deal with many specified units, the question is how do the developers think about the customers/community? Is it ready for more in depth game features or is it necessary to keep weewar simple to be attractive to as many newbies as possible, just keeping the barrier to start playing low? Is the focus on people who play it for months or is it many casual players who stay a few weeks, but are much larger group... Probably the focus is in the middle so there is a chance for new units I guess, but not for too many.

    If there was a new ship I think the stronger role would fit better. Something between destroyer (which is in fact overpowered currently) and the mighty battleship. Yes as Alfons writes the omnipotent destroyer should loose some of its power and there should be 2 ships doing what the destroyer does now. One ship dealing with subs and air, the other doing the damage predominantly against other ships and land. As Jeye writes a ship that could reach DFA by the means of firing range would be a bad idea currently, but maybe if there would exist a terrain tile of shallow water where big ships often could not enter shallow coastlines on some maps, the range of 5 would make sense maybe. Still there is only 1 water tile now so the high range version is worse I guess. I wouldn´t change the price of the destroyer much, but rather set the Cruiser price a bit higher, like 1200 or something...

    madmike

    Raider

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    Not really true cas. I for one like new things, but things with in a certain scope. The cruiser is good idea. But things like the following image are just ... lets say... out of scope and i dont agree with them. lol




    -mm

    Lucian

    Berserker

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    Ahahaha... I love your chops mike! Awesome.

    In any case... whilst I understand that more strategy is needed in the seas, I also think that more strategy is needed in the air. However, making a unit just for the sake of filling that gap is a bit weird.

    In my opinion there are a number of new units I believe should be added and each with a unique purpose which would help the strategy value of the game. The first sea unit that we need is a transporter for those island maps with the stranded units which are of no more use.

    I do think that since the battleship and sub got nerfed, the destroyer is the biggest value for money at this stage (well barring huge amounts of low level units). They rip ground units to shreds. The only units that do more damage to them are heavy tanks and zerks, but destroyers will never get close enough for a counter attack. They demolish any other ranged units including DFAs. They are far more useful than DFAs in many instances due to their move and shoot trait, not to mention that the they have more defense and repair 2 a turn. On top of all that, they rip every single air unit apart. Even the almighty bomber goes 1 to 1 with a destroyer... except a destroyer repairs 2 on the spot... or moves back and shoots at the bomber from a distance without retaliation. The bomber has to fly it's ass back on a base for repairs. To top it all off, they clean out subs and all other naval units... and with a decent jetboat support for the gang up bonus, a destroyer can take out a battleship... and the sacrifice is worth it due to the cost difference. The only unit the destroyer is not too good against is another destroyer.

    The first thing that need to get done is nerfing of destroyers. Battleships move 2 and shoot 4 for an effective range of 6. DFAs don't move and shoot for 6. Subs move 3 an shoot 2 for an effective range of 5. Destroyers move 4 and shoot 3 for a range of 7! Now that wouldn't be too big of a deal but considering that the cost of these units is 2000, 1200, 1000 and 900 respectively, why is the unit that's the most useful the cheapest? It's only weakness is battleship/DFA range... but due to the movement of a destroyer you have control of that range.

    I say drop the movement to 3, keep the range at 3, drop the attack against air and lower the defense a tad. Either all of that or make them repair by 1 like DFAs. Then you can add a frigate or some sort of an anti-air ship. Basically... the destroyer is now two units in one. We need a sea unit that is anti-air and a sea unit that is anti-sub... and both should drop to battleships. The other thing with all three of the big sea units is that they all have ranged and close attack, so they don't have the weakness of artillery. Perhaps adding a 2-3 range to the destroyer would work as well.

    Another useful ship would be a carrier, which had slow movement and decent short ranged attack, but good defense and was able to repair air units.

    Casaubon

    Tank

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    Wow Madmike this freak units are ehm WEIRD INDEED, I totally agree with you! They wouldnt even fit on a single terrain hex in game probably. Ultrabomber LOL, did you get this stuff back in good ol´tangler days?
    Lucian you brought out the situation on sea with the overpowerd destroyer very well, I applaud you. The destroyer is too powerfull, I repeat there should be 2 ships doing the job it does alone and thats more than just filling a hole.

    Lucian wrote:Another useful ship would be a carrier, which had slow movement and decent short ranged attack, but good defense and was able to repair air units.

    Its in my pipe allready. Here we go:
    I even would make it almost defenseless so speedboats would be upgraded if they could harm an unprotected carrier.

    I read somewhere and can´t recall exactly where it was, that there would be some technical difficutlies to realize transport units. Don´t know if its true.. but if units can´t be positioned on top of other units, I´d suggest to make air repairable on adjacent hexes next to the carrier.

    boodog314

    Raider

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    My personal opinion is that there are already plenty of units in weewar, and they just need to be more balanced (from either a strength or cost perspective). Here's my take:

    Light Trooper (75): too cheap, should be about 100
    Heavy Trooper (150): about right
    Raider (200): about right
    Light Tank (300): about right
    Heavy Tank (600): about right
    Beserker (900): waaay too expensive, should be the same cost as HT if repairing 1/turn
    Assault Artillery (450): too expensive, should be about 400
    Light Artillery (200): about right
    Heavy Artillery (600): about right
    DFA (1200): about right
    Speedboat (200): about right
    Hovercraft (300): too cheap, should be about 400
    Destroyer (900): too cheap, should be more than a sub
    Sub (1000): too expensive, should be less than a destroyer
    Battleship (2000): about right
    Anti-Aircraft (300): about right
    Helicopter (600): about right
    Jet (800): too cheap, should be more than a bomber
    Bomber (900): too expensive, should be less than a jet


    The biggest improvement to the game would be if light troopers went to 100. Then it would cost enough so people couldn't just spam them all over the map without worrying if they die... What does anyone else think?

    Casaubon

    Tank

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    I agree with you that destroyers (++++) are too cheap and bombers (--) and beserkers (-) are too expensive. not sure about the trooper, it keeps almost defeated players in game and gives them hope

    I made a new freighter and some freaky big bang missile on my suggesions site. check check, comments are welcome =)

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